Congressman Rob Woodall (R-GA7) introduced the FairTax on the first day in session. It is still called H.R. 25. ? I thought it would be assigned a different number but, I guess not.
The FairTax effectively kills two birds with one stone. Make that three birds. 1) It will be an economic stimulus like no other in the world, without increasing our debt. 2) It will be totally progressive and will eliminate all taxation for the poor via the prebate. 3) No more filing tax returns, no need for the IRS. And because the FairTax will expand the tax base (the number of people currently paying taxes) from only working Americans to every person within the borders regardless of citizenship, the individual shared burden couldn’t be more ‘fair.’
The biggest advantage and stimulus will be evident with every paycheck you receive. Under the FairTax, your gross pay will be your net pay, exclusive of any state taxes of course. That’s because under the FairTax, all the federal income taxes you are currently paying will go away. The term ‘take home pay’ will be a thing of the past. You actually get to keep what you make. And you don’t need an accountant or tax lawyer to help get it for you. How fair is that?
And one more, which will be the biggest obstacle to overcome, and explains why H.R. 25 never made it out of the Ways and Means Committee under Charlie Rangel (D-NY15). The FairTax would end the taxing power currently held by politicians in Washington, and shift that power back to the people. Taking the ‘tax hammer’ away from Washington means no more leveraging tax breaks for campaign contributions.
The other good news here is that it begins with 47 co-sponsors. That’s more than in previous sessions when first introduced. And, among the sponsors is a Democrat, Dan Boren [D-OK2]. That’s a first too.
Meanwhile, contact your representative and ask him or her to become a co-sponsor, if they are not already. Tell them you support it and want them to do likewise.
Use this link to easily find your congressman’s phone number -> http://bit.ly/contactcongr
OR
Use this link to send them a quick email. -> http://bit.ly/ftcongress
“When They Feel the Heat, They Will See the Light” – Herman Cain
Link: to H.R. 25
Ross wrote:
“Surely you must know the ringleaders behind the “progressive” fairtax are determined to keep alive the power of Congress to get at the profits and gains of the “rich” and those “evil corporations” in order to “spread the wealth“.
No. Surely, I don’t know that. But I’m certainly open to see any proof you have of that, other than conspiracy theory websites that declare paying taxes is voluntary or that the government demanding taxes is illegal.
Ross,
Take my word for it, there is no conspiracy, no secret handshakes, no oaths signed in blood, no decoder rings, etc. The ringleaders behind the alleged fair tax do their handiwork in the actual language of H.R. 25!
You indicate the alleged fairtax replaces a number of taxes, but you never answered the question I posted. The irrefutable fact is, if H.R.25 were adopted and its companion legislation (H.J.RES. 16) to repeal the 16th Amendment passed, Congress would still maintain the power to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other “incomes”, such as the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 upheld in Flint vs. Stone Tracy, or, the income tax laid during the Civil War upheld in Springer vs. the United States.
Now, if the architects of H.R. 25 were sincere about ending taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes, they would have added the language I offered many years ago to their repeal of the 16th Amendment, the language being :
The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay “any“ tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money
As to you referring to me as a naysayer, I deal in truth and facts, and the alleged fairtax was, and is sold to the American people with the impression it will end taxes calculated from profits, gains, salaries and other incomes, which certainly is not the case!
Additionally I noticed you mentioned H.R. 25 will end “self-employment taxes“. But what you may be unaware of is, Mary and Joe Sixpack, your ordinary working couple, will not be as lucky as you may think.
Mary and Joe have two children and find it necessary to earn extra money to pay their bills. Mary baby sits for neighbors in the community and cleans homes on weekends to raise extra money while Joe, who works for a pluming company as a full-time job, also provides the same plumbing service on his own time to people living in his community to raise extra cash.
Well, surprise, surprise! Under the alleged fair tax Mary and Joe Sixpack’s inalienable right to sell the property they have in their labor becomes a taxable event, and, they must first register with government to sell the property they have in their labor, collect a federal tax for Congress, file federal sales tax returns under the penalty of perjury 12 times a freaken year, and they will be compelled to keep any records Congress may dream up, not to mention the threat of audits which will constantly haunt them if they dare to sell the property they have in their labor.
Bottom line is, Ross, the alleged fairtax is not what most people believe it is. They have been propagandized with the fair tax book which is a fairytale version of H.R. 25, and very much misled by Huckabee, Neal Boortz, and Herman Cain, who I once held in high esteem.
Finally, I would be part of the problem if I merely complained about specific provisions of H.R. 25 without offering a solution. My solution is to return to our Constitution’s ORIGINAL TAX PLAN which could be accomplished by adding the following words to our Constitution:
“The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay “any“ tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money”
Regards,
JWK
No. Surely, I don’t know that. But I’m certainly open to see any proof you have of that, other than conspiracy theory websites that declare paying taxes is voluntary or that the government demanding taxes is illegal.
I’m also open to your naming the so-called ‘ringleaders.’ I know there are advocates, like myself, and the three philanthropist businessmen that spent over $20 million in researching an alternative tax system to the current one are known. And the product of that research was translated into H.R.25.
There are plenty of FairTax naysayers out there, like yourself, who complain of one thing or the other that the FairTax does not do. There is plenty that it does not do. But what it does do is replace the god-awful and regressive current tax system by eliminating all federal personal and corporate income taxes, gift, estate, capital gains, alternative minimum, Social Security, Medicare, and self-employment taxes and replaces them with one simple, visible, federal retail sales tax administered primarily by existing state sales tax authorities. And the tax is levied and paid only once, period. The FairTax taxes us only on what we choose to spend on new goods or services, not on what we earn.
It does nothing to any excise taxes. Excise taxes are another matter. It does nothing to the federal excise taxes imposed by ATF on alcohol and tobacco products. Nothing to the taxes imposed on gasoline at the pump. They still are as regressive as ever.
If, as you say, the ‘ringleaders’ want to gouge businessmen and corporations, then they wouldn’t be proposing the FairTax. They would only have to do what the eggheads in Washington want to do today. Perpetuate class warfare and wealth envy and raise taxes on ‘the rich.’
QUESTION:
If H.R.25 were adopted and signed into law, and, if the 16th Amendment were repealed as proposed in H.J.RES.16 [H.R. 25’s companion legislation to repeal the 16th amendment) before H.R. 25’s Sunset Provision expired, is it not a fact that Congress would maintain the authority to lay and collect taxes calculated from profits and gains as done under the Corporate Excise Tax of 1909 in addition to laying and collecting the new 23 percent tax upon the sale of newly manufactured property and the new 23 percent tax upon the sale of property which working people have in their labor?
The sad truth is, the answer to the above question is YES! Surely you must know the ringleaders behind the “progressive” fairtax are determined to keep alive the power of Congress to get at the profits and gains of the “rich” and those “evil corporations” in order to “spread the wealth“.
Now, here is my solution. All that needs to be done for real tax reform is to add the following 32 words to our Constitution which in fact would drive a stake in the heart of any tax calculated from “incomes”.
The Sixteenth Amendment is hereby repealed and Congress is henceforth forbidden to lay “any“ tax or burden calculated from profits, gains, interest, salaries, wages, tips, inheritances or any other lawfully realized money,
If these words were added to our Constitution, they would force Congress to return to our Constitution’s original tax plan as our founders intended it to operate, and was based primarily upon taxes on consumption, which the advocates of H.R. 25 say they want.
JWK
Not much to add Betsy to what I’ve already said here before. I’ll spare y’all the time and just refer you to the dialog that Mark and I have had on this message thread and on this one: http://wp.me/pbSS9-2wj
Your fears about a lack of transparency are unfounded. The entire bill is 133 pages long. Read them. The fact that the bill takes power away from the politicians and returns it back to the people is why it has not (yet) been brought out of committee to be debated, let alone voted on.
Unlike the current tax system Betsy, the FairTax is better for the poor. But I can understand your skepticism and mis-trust of government. It is well founded. But read the bill Betsy then let me know if you have any questions. Or not.
WEll this is what I think, I do not trust our government on anything period. Dems lie, Gop’s lie and sir I don’t trust you either Mark or Ross you are probably working for the government and we know our government lies to us in open and do back door secretcy. I say to you Mark & Ross this bill is NOT Transparent at all!
Just like Obama in his claim to have open transparentcy..that went out the window real fast. Like Mark is saying we can NOT afford to be lied to again about this so called bill, my bet its a self-serving controlling bill by the government that will destroy us, control us more just like this crazy airline security scanners. There is always something hidden in a bill a deep & ugly secret you can count on it that WILL pass out of Congress self-loathing, and only for the RICH! Why did they let “Out Sourcing our JOBS happen” …because it would benefit the politicians and make the rich, RICHER! AND THE MIDDLE CLASS BECOME THE POOR ALSO. Want be long when there will be one 2 classes super rich & poor. Hey don’t forget the death panels for the seniors and we will be ruled by the Muslims if Obama has his way!!
Mark, the reality that ‘only people pay taxes’ is the way it is. This might be hard, for you, to understand but the concept goes something like this. If you tax corporations, businesses, or anyone who provides a good or service, they aren’t the ones who ultimately pay the tax. The taxes they have to pay are imbedded in their price and simply passed on to the ultimate consumer. Thus the phrase ‘only people pay taxes.’
That’s why a consumption tax which is paid at the last stage of the process, instead of all through its production, makes the most sense. Well, to me and others who understand the concept.
The elimination of all the taxes in the process becomes a stimulus to economic activity in and of itself.
You seem to be stuck on that phrase (only PEOPLE pay taxes) and conflating it with government entities and calling it some sort of fine print conspiracy. Well, that and the bogus notion that the sponsors of the bill are obligated to usurp the authority and responsibility of the elected representatives in Washington and put out some sort of traveling road show. You can rest assured that a piece of legislation as significant as the overhaul of how the government obtains its tax revenue, will be debated in Congress, and will be passed or defeated the same way as any other piece of legislation. Except in this case, because the bill calls for the repeal of the 16th Amendment, the bar is set even higher.
Still waiting for the names of these FairTax leaders you keep referring to. I won’t ask you a third time.
Michael, seriously, something is really deceptive about a plan that hides a trillion dollar tax and then claims it’s transparent.
Do you know what Fairtax says is their #1 “axiom”? Do you Mike? Their number 1 axiom is “ONLY PEOPLE PAY TAXES. That is what their web sites say. In fact, Fairtax says its a “cruel hoax” to “pretend” corporations can pay any taxes, because corporations just pass the cost along.
Yet, in Fairtax fine print, there is a trillion dollar tax on city and state governments. Did you know that?
Do you know how Fairtax spokesmen have explained this? No, you don’t know. I do. I know their fine print, and I asked official Fairtax spokesmen about it.
They told me they have NO PLANS to tell city and state government officials about this trillion dollar tax on city and state government. Yet they admit the Fairtax fine print has a massive tax on city andn state governments.
Guess what Michael? You have been hoodwinked. There are plenty of people — smart people — real experts — who have exposed Fairtax as the farce it is.
Seriously smart people look at both sides, and care about the truth.
Look into it. Check out Fairtax fine print on google, for example. Open your eyes.
Ross STOP your wasting your time. Mark will not except a word of truth and will vomit comments disguised as accepted fact in an attempt to refute what thinking people are reading and understanding. I believe the Fairtax will go along way towaed getting this great nation back on solid footing.
Just a couple of points Mark, then I think the chances of rational and substantive debate have ended.
Proposing the FairTax does not mean that every mayor and governor must be notified of its consequences. Proposing the FairTax means that, hopefully, that Congress will have a chance to consider it and pass it.
Businesses look out for their shareholders and their bottom line. They would welcome the FairTax if it were enacted. But meanwhile, they obviously don’t wish to become a target of Washington for advocating it. That’s up to the grass-roots, us folks to do. And that’s because most politicians in Washington happen to crave the power to tax and control business and industries by manipulating it. And they don’t want to readily give that power up. We’re going to have to take it from them at the polls. We made some progress last November.
You mentioned many times about “It’s own leaders are NOT trying to pass it.” That is curious since there are no FairTax leaders that I know of. There were three guys in Texas that commissioned and paid for the $22 million in research to come up with it. And they did. They accomplished what they wanted.
So who are these so-called FairTax leaders that you so far have not named?
I didn’t see anywhere in HR 25 that cancer victims are taxed $70,000. Whatever it is you’ve been smoking, you better put it down.
And the one thing you have not done is to justify why government entities should be exempt from paying the same tax rate on the same items as everyone else? If they or any other group held some special exempt status, then of course, the FairTax would not work. It depends on everyone being on the same playing field. Sounds only fair.
So when you say “cancer paitents have always paid that tax anyway, they just didn’t know it” might mean a lot to you, but it doesnt mean shi* financially.
Got that-? You can stand there and say “it just replaces embedded taxes” till your boobs fall of. That doesn’t put one dollar of taxes in the coffer.
My neighbor gets cancer, she would have to pay 70,000 dollars in federal taxes because of it.
Guess what dufus? She only makes 30K. Got that? Her income is 30K. And she has cancer. She can’t pay 70,000 in federal taxes.
What is your goofy answer? Oh, you are going to stand there like a moron, and say “Uh, you can pay, cause you used to pay before in embedded cost”. Hello dumb asp — she makes 30K a year. She can’t pay 70K in your goofy pretend tax.
Your goofy pretend math is based on collecting massive dollars from EVERY cancer victim. No exceptions.
Your goofy pretend math is based on collecting massive dollars from EVERY city and state.
Guess what dufus — you can not collect taxes from the cancer patients. Got that? You can’t. You can not get money out of their pocket. Got that yet? NO MONEY.
When you start to understand that Fairtax is BASED on collecting money from EVERY cancer victim’s pocket, then you might wake up to this farce.
And your response is — FORGET THE BOOK? Look at the BILL? Dufus — look at the pocket of the cancer victim.
Your plan is to make every cancer victim pay, on average, pay 70,000 in federal taxes, JUST ON THEIR CANCER! That is how your math adds up. Got that yet?
Your plan is goofy. Forget the idiot bill, forget the book. You were fooled buy pure bullshit.
That is why Fairtax is going no where — it’s utter nonsense. Sounds great though, unless you THINK
Let me get this straight – now I am suppose to “forget the books”.
It’s not the books, don’t worry about the books or if its HR25. They are equally goofy. Equally deceptive.
I used to think Fairtax was great, then I realized it was deeply flawed. It took me a while to realize, it’s deceptive. Not flawed — it’s own leaders know it’s insane nonsense.
It’s own leaders are NOT trying to pass it. The only ones trying to pass it are the suckers, frankly.
You blame politicians?
Let me tell you a story. A fairtax spokesman I trade emails with, told me that Fairtax leaders were absolutely certain that corporations would flock to Fairtax. Did you know that? Yes or no, did you know that? Early on in Fairtax history, they were certain of massive corporate support – not just financial, but support for their plan. Backing.
Fairtax leaders were sure of it. Corporations would have NO taxes under Fairtax. No FICA, no corporate taxes, no taxes on the profit. This is like heaven for corporations. This plan would make the US the corporate envy of the world.
Fairtax leaders believed that implicitly. They were stunned, STUNNED, when corporate America essentially laughed at Fairtax. Did you know this?
Stunned.
Oh Fairtax leaders did not report this fact, but corporations have not given Fairtax the time of day. And your leaders were absolutely certain they would.
The suckers didn’t care. They are so stupid, frankly, that this rejection by corporations didn’t even make them wonder!
Corporate America is a big place. There are many hundreds of corporate leaders, CEOs, CFOs, and every one of them would LOVE to not have any taxes. The US FICA taxes are a huge drain on corporate America, and a huge cost to every business. GM was killed by FICA taxes — they all were.
Forget corporate taxes, FICA taxes are far more damaging to the bottom line of struggling business. Corporate taxes are only on profit. But FICA taxes are before profit. I know businesses that would LOVE, LOVE to just have that FICA tax back. One of my brothers own a printing company, and the FICA he pays for his employees would be enough for him to buy a new house every year – a very nice house. He could have a million dollar condo on a beach, and spend a lot of time there, if not for FICA. Forget the other taxes, for many businesses, getting rid of FICA ALONE would be a god send.
Fairtax not only gets rid of FICA, it gets rid of ALL taxes. So if it was REMOTELY true plan, REMOTELY on the level, corporations and businesses woudl adore it.
They dont.
Are they stupid? DO they not know taxes? Do they not know math?
YOur Fairtax “experts” are all paid by Fairtax, did you know that? The few “experts” that Fairtax had support them, never heard anything about the underlying duplicity of Fairtax. That list of 80 “economist” for example — I contacted a dozen of them or so. And only ONE guy was still defending Fairtax — and he works for Fairtax. The rest said they were just going by what Fairtax told them.
Corporations were not so easily duped. And no — NO – corporations support Fairtax.
Why would corporations dismiss Fairtax?
Remember, this information about corporate rejection stunning Fairtax leaders came from “inside”. Fairtax leaders expected wide spread public support, and even more corporate backing.
If you knew nothing else about Fairtax, if this was the first day you ever heard of it, just the fact that corporations reject this, all corporations, universally, have spurned this magic plan — that should make you wonder.
Oh you blame “politicians” and lobbysit. Are you nuts? This would get rid of ALL taxes!! Lobbyist would love it. LOVE IT. No taxes!!!
And Fairtax leaders were sure corporations would love it. That is what Fairtax spokesman told me personally.. They were stunned to find out otherwise.
Why did corporate america laugh at Fairtax? For the same reason I do — Fairtax is goofy. It did not fool corporations for ten minutes.
Do you know how Fairtax groupies (mindless followers) explained this? I told one guy about how corporations have laughed at Fair tax, He said “Oh they just want their usual loopholes””
Usual loop holes? This gets rid of ALL taxes for them. ALL — gets rid of FICA, gets rid of corporate taxes, gets rid of personal income taxes, If this were on the level, corporations would crawl over broken glass to get it.
Now, there may be corporations who would not like a tax free enviroment for some sneaky reason. But ALL corporations? Fairtax could not get ANY corporate interest in this plan, which is far better for corporations than it is for people.
If anyone should have loved Fairtax, it was corporations. And Fairtax leaders thought for SURE they would.
Did you know that — y es or no?
No , you didn’t have a clue.
Guess why corporations were not fooled by this for 10 seconds?
Can you guess?
I can. I know why they weren’t fooled. They weren’t fooled because Fairtax – -books, HR25, videos, the whole thing, is based on clear NONSENSE. Corporations aren’t stupid.
You can fool stupid people pretty easily – -tell them it’s “researched” tell them it solves all their problems, tell them it gives them money and jobs and no taxes and no forms, ect.
This didn’t fool ANY corporation. Not one.
Oh a national sales tax would be GREAT – fabulous! I know all that. Corporations would love it too, if it worked like you say.
The problem is math. Using real math, for a national sales tax to work, we would have to cut the federal budget by 60%. We would have to repudiate the debt too. We would have to eliminate Social Security and Medicare, and cut the military by 2/3.
If we cut all that, a 20% or so sales tax would mathematically work. And guess who knows this?
Fairtax leaders. They know all this. Your plan might work if we cut like crazy. IF we got RID of social security payments, and Medicare payments, and half the military, and got rid of federal and military pensions.
Yeah, your national sales tax would work.
But our government spends so much, that mathematically, a national sales tax would have to be much much higher, drastically higher
This isn’t my opinion, this is what Joint Committee on Taxation said. Oh, they didnt say to cut Social Security — ect. They said a national sales tax would have to be 59%, and probably go to 90%.
Corporations knew instantly that JCT was right, and Fairtax was full of hot air.
A 23% sales tax would cover not much more than 1/4 of what our government spends. That’s the bottom line.
How does your Farce tax get 23% to bring in the same revenue as 90%?
They pretend to tax things they know they can not tax. Don’t blame politicians.
Politicians would LOVE to get rid of all taxes, and just pay for things in the price of products that cost the same. That is what Boortz said this would be — we pay what we pay now, we get prebates but no more taxes.
That is how Fairtax sold this lunacy. Pay the same prices we pay now, no one pays any other taxes, and we get PAID by the government every month. Oh, and it’s all backed up by “research”
Then you say — forget the books. Look at the bill!
The bill is as insane as the book. The bill counts as a given things they know are absurd.
The bill counts as a given that my neighbor will pay 70,000 dollars in federal taxes, when she only makes 30,000.
That is what you bill says. Oh, it doesnt say specific people will do the impossible, but it is based on that logic. Logic? It is based on that farce.
Your bill is absurd nonsense. And my neighbor is a good example.
Your “Fairtax Calculator is another good example. And your Calculator shows that Fairtax leaders know it.
Your Fairtax book is based on taxing things that are impossible to tax.
There is no logical difference between HR25, and a bill that said “a federal tax on moonbeams and baby farts”
If you can’t tax something – you can’t tax it. Doesnt matter if HR25 says we just tax city and state governments and cancer victims and renters. You can’t tax governments, you cant tax cancer victims, you cant tax renters on their rent.
There are different reasons WHY you can’t tax such things – but you can’t. Can’t happen. Wont happen,
So HR25 is essentiall a bill that says :WE PRETEND TO TAX THINGS WE KNOW WE CAN NOT TAX”
It does not matter one iota if you say “We can tax city and state government, we can tax cancer victims, we can tax renters” — First, no, you cant. Second, saying it doesn’t make it true.
There is literally no way to tax those things, and those are just a few.
IAnd guess who knows that? Fairtax leaders. They will even tell you –if there are ANY exceptions, ANY exemptions, then it’s not Fairtax. I’ve heard Fairtax leaders say that myself. And they are right — there can be no exception in their tax because it only works if they can collect tax on things they can’t collect taxes on.
In other words, it doesnt work, and they know it.
Fairtax leaders have SAID – if they can’t tax city governments, then their plan doesnt work.
Fairtax leaders have SAID – if they can’t tax the military, then their plan doesnt work,
Fairtax leaders have said — if they can’t tax cancer patients then their plan doesnt work.
Well guess what? They can’t tax city government. So by Fairtax own leaders logic — it can’t work,
Guess what? They can’t tax the military, so their plan doesn’t work,
They can’t tax cancer victims, so their plan doesnt work.
It doesnt matter one iota if you say “oh but they paid that anyway in embedded costs” — doesn’t matter. That may make perfect sense to you, but that doesn’t mean money will flow from that cancer patient to the US Treasury.
Oh I know you believe, like some goofy kid, that “well they paid it anyway in embedded cost” — guess what? SO WHAT? So what if they paid it in embedded cost before. That doesn’t have anything to do with it.
Take one example. My neighbor gets cancer. Her federal tax if she gets cancer will be 70,000 dollars, say.
She makes 30K. But Fairtax lunatics COUNT as a given, as a bed rock given, that she will pay 70,000 in federal taxes. Its not sorta goofy, it’s not kinda goofy, it’s totally insane. You can not get this money from her.
Fairtax counts that as a GIVEN — an absolute given! Its actually absolutely insane!
This is just one example. Your leaders say “well, she was paying that anyway before in embedded cost”
No – no she wasn’t. She never had cancer before. Got that? She only makes 30K a year, and she won’t make that if she gets cancer. She has no savings. She simply can not pay this 70,000 dollars you folks accept as GOSPEL.
You fools accept as GOSPEL – even more than gospel, you accept this absurdity as the unquestionable truth.
ITS UTTER NONSENSE,
And guess who knows that? Fairtax leaders know that.
Nothing against you personally Mark, but you typify the need for educating the public about the FairTax. Forget the book crap. HR 25 is all there is. And it is as plain as the nose on your face.
There is a very good reason Mark, that every mayor and governor are not fully aware of the FairTax. Hopefully with this new congress, that will soon change. But to explain why it isn’t a household word that everyone understands (ha, as if everyone understands the current tax code) is that since its introduction in congress in 2007, the Democrat majority and Charles Rangel (D-NY) as chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, HR 25 has been buried in committee. Which means he had no intention of bringing it out for discussion or debate. I’m hopeful that the new chairman Dave Camp (R-MI) will entertain it during his meetings on tax reform.
But the main reason the FairTax isn’t a household word yet is that it takes the tax hammer away from the politicians and neuters the lobbyists efforts to gain tax breaks for campaign contributions. In that respect, it would represent the greatest shift in power from the government to the people since the Declaration of Independence.
‘Transparency’ in the context of taxes and the FairTax Mark, means that the person paying the tax will see exactly how much he is paying, every time. They know it because it will be printed on their receipt, every time. With the current system, know one knows. All you see is deductions from your paycheck which get greater with the more you make. The term ‘take-home pay’ is something Americans have been conditioned to accept. Under the FairTax, your gross pay IS your take-home pay. Not counting for State and local taxes. That’s where transparency comes in.
Consider too that the states can, if they want to, pass a similar law on the state level to replace their state income tax structure with their own consumption tax.
The ‘massive tax’ on government entities you keep referring to isn’t anything more than what you, I, and everyone else will have to shoulder. We all, as in ALL, will share the burden in financing the federal government and all its entitlement programs, national defense, the arts, and everything else. There are no exemptions to supporting these programs. That’s fair.
The FairTax is new. In fact, it turns what we know about taxation upside down. It shifts from taxing income, to taxing consumption. You don’t want to pay taxes? Don’t buy anything new. But like what happened in 1913 when the income tax was born, people got used to it. The dirty little secret about that was that the people were told that only the rich people would be taxed. That’s what made the 16th Amendment so attractive to most of the country. Tax the rich. Sound familiar? Government entities will get used to it too. And will, like we have to do, manage their budgets accordingly.
Right — Fairtax goes 13 years, never once tells city and states about a MASSIVE trillion dollar tax that is central to fairtax. Not mentioned at all in their books for 10 years, then mentioned in passing in ONE SENTENCE. Not mentioned at all in one speech.
In fact this trillion dollar tax on city and state governments is not mentioned on any of 1000 or so videos from Fairtax.
Not one governor knows about this massive tax on city and state government. Not one mayor. Fairtax only mention
Then someone says — oh it’s there — look up sect 706, paragraph 2, and correlate that with item 5 page 139. It’s very clear.
No, it’s not clear. It’s the opposite of clear.
Give me a list like this — that would make it clear.
EXPECTED FAIRTAX FROM STATES AND CITY GOVERNMENTS –
State ———-EXPECTED TAX AMOUNT – -TAX ON CITIES WITHIN THAT STATE – TAX ON PEOPLE IN THAT STATE
California state government — 22 billion from the state government, 25 billion from city government, 33 billon from people in Florida . Total Fairtax from California people and government: 80 billion dollars.
Florida state governmennt —- 20 billion from state government, 23 billion from city governments, 31 billion from people. Total Fairtax from Florida people and government: 74 billion.
Texas state government —– 18 billion from state government, 18 billion from city governments, 25 billion from people. Total Fairtax from Texas people and governments: 61 billion.
and do that for every state.
Also make a list of 500 top cities in US, and list each one for how much Fairtax that city government has to pay.
You don’t have anything like that. You have some convoluted “see section 709, then look up section C, and then page 138”.
Virtually no one in the public has ANY CLUE that Fairtax is a massive tax not just on people, but on city and state governments. No clue at all.
There are no mayors that know this fantastic absurd tax on city governments. There are no governors that know. Fairtax has not mentioned it in their first 4 or 5 books, even once. It’s not in ANY video, it’s not in ANY speech.
YOu say it’s in the bill? Bullshit — it’s hidden there too.
Put up 100 videos, telling people about this massive tax on city and state governments.
Go give 100 speeches, highlighting this massive tax on city and state governments.
Write 50 letters, one to each governor, and tell them about it.
Write 2,000 letters and tell 2,000 mayors about it.
Put up billboards in each state, showing what that state’s government is expected to pay in Fairtax.
Put up billboards in major cities, showing what that city’s government is expected to pay in Fairtax.
That is how you could tell people about your massive tax on city and state governments.
This hiding it nonsense is BS.
I like it though. This BS will sink Huck like a rock. Keep it up.
You can not make someone see or understand what they do not want to look at. It,s obvious Mark has some mental challenges and should be given a wide berth. Professionals need to take a long hard look at Mark and provide the help needed. I have just finished reading The Fair Tax Book and have a need for more in depth knowledge on the fairtax bill. What I’m saying is I’m far from an expert but I’m not stupid either. I never read anything about MASSIVE TAXES paid by states, cities, companys or whom ever. I guess thats because I read what was on the page and not what was not there.
Mark, what is not clear about “Purchases by State governments and their political subdivisions of taxable property and services shall be subject to the tax imposed by section 101.”
That means that purchases of goods and services made by states and their political subdivisions (i.e. counties and cities) would be subject to the FairTax.
Now, I am not a FairTax supporter — an opponent, in fact — but the legislation is relatively straightforward. If your complaint is that the FairTax people haven’t been clear about all the negative impacts of the FairTax, that’s one thing, but the legislation itself is open for all to read.
Ross you are really dense and in denial.
That does not say :STATE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENTS MUST PAY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MASSIVE TAXES”
That does not say “California state governmente must pay, under Fairtax, 20 billion dollars a year”
That does not say “Every city government in California, under Fairtax, must pay the federal government massive taxes.
Yeah see Ross, your BS is hidden — even in the BS you sent me, no reasonable person could guess that all states must pay a massive tax to the federal government.
Yah see Ross, that is why you lunatics wrote it that way — you don’t want city and states to know.
Guess what Ross — your little plan is a farce, a joke, it’s not taken seriously. But I hope you go try to pass it. Take Huck with you. This will be like an albatross around Huck’s neck. Wait till Huck tries to explain that every city government in the US, must pay massive taxes to the federal government.
Wait till Huck tries to explain that every state government must pay massive taxes to the federal government.
He will be laughed off the national stage.
Go for it, I love it.
OK Mark. I’ll show you. Being the compassionate conservative that I am. I’ll give you the links. It’s up to you to take it from there.
As a point of information though Mark. What videos, speeches, or books say, including what you’ve been told they say, are irrelevant. So get over it. What matters is the legislation itself, which is what I’ve been talking about and now have given you the links to. Now, you decide whether what you’ve been told is true, or not.
The FairTax Act of 2011
Sec. 2 (a) 7: Person
‘SEC. 102. INTERMEDIATE AND EXPORT SALES.
Sec. 703. Government Purchases
Sec. 704 Government Enterprises
You’re welcome!
If it’s in the bill — SHOW it to me.
If it’s in your books — SHOW IT TO ME.
If it’s in your vidoes — SHOW it to me.
DOn’t tell me it can be infered, or that it’s implied, or that part of it is in this paragraph, part in that.
Show me where is says — FAIRTAX IS BASED ON CITY AND STATE GOVERNMENTS PAYING MASSIVE TAXES TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Show me in ANY of your 2000 videos, where it says that.
SHow me in ANY of your 1000 speeches, where you said that.
Show me in ANY of your books, over 14 years, where it said that.
Go on — you keep saying it’s there, and you can’t SHOW me.
Just like you have hidden it for 13 years, just like you hide it now, just like you are scared to death someone will have a hearing on this, and this crap will come out.
Show me where it says that. In 13 years, in 14 books, in 2000 videos, you have hid this, and even now, when confronted, you STILL can’t show me.
You said it’s there — SHOW me.
OK Mark, I’ve come to the realization that not only are you incapable or unwilling to read the bill itself, but you are not reading my responses to your comments either. If you re-read my response, a little slower this time, maybe you will see the page numbers IN THE BILL that I referred to.
I’ll cut you some slack for not being able to comprehend what you might read when you get around to reading the bill if you were educated in a government school. But believe it or not, IT’S IN THERE.
Have a nice day.
They put it in the bill?
No, it does not say anywhere in the bill that every city government, every state government, and every county government will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government.
You still haven’t shown me where it says that —
You didn’t say it in your bill. You didn’t say it in your videos. You didn’t say it in your books. You didn’t say it your speeches. You didn’t say it in your web sites.
You hid it, and are still hiding it.
Show me in your bill, or your book, or your vidoes, or your speeches, where it says “The State of California will have to pay the federal government 20 billion dollars per year”
Say that in the bill — only say it once for every state. Say in your vidoes — “Every state will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government”
Say it in your books “Every city and state will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government”
Say it in your speeches ” Every city and every state government will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government”
Say it on your buttons “Every city and every state government will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government”.
Say that on Fox news ” Every city and every state government will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government”
Send a letter to every governor “Your state government will have to pay a massive tax to the federal government”
Send a letter to every mayor “Your city will have to pay a massive tax to the federal governent”
Then maybe you will have something other than a BS, hidden, deceptive, and insane plan.
Mark, that ‘such and such place’ is the bill. Imagine when legislation is written. They put it in the bill. Now I know it’s not fashionable nowadays to actually read the bills before they get passed. But this one is short enough that most people are able to read it. You keep harping about FairTax book. They’re a lot longer than the legislation itself. Try reading it and give up on the books. Congress isn’t going to pass the books. Hopefully they will pass the law.
You seem to be in shock that state and federal governments will now pay taxes when heretofore they have not. Oh well. If congress enacts it, it is the law. If the 16th amendments gets repealed, which is also part of the FairTax bill, then sure, Congress is subject to its own law, as are the states. If HR 25 would be passed, but the 16th amendment wasn’t repealed within 7 years, then the whole thing sunsets and goes away. That’s IN THE BILL.
This consumption tax is not in addition to what people are already paying in income tax. It merely REPLACES the income tax. Income tax goes away, is replaced by a consumption tax. The people, and the states if they every produced anything, would keep all of their revenue. Your gross pay becomes your net pay. I don’t see where that is anything to complain about. The net result in taxes paid are virtually neutral.
The big advantage of the FairTax compared to the current IRC is that the tax base (that’s the number of people who will pay taxes) increases from just the few and fewer people who are working to every warm body within the borders who buy new goods or services, regardless if they are a legal citizen or foreign tourist or diplomat. And for those very same people, the tax burden on them is not much more, if anything, than what they are currently paying. In the case of state and federal government entities, it will be new to them. Oh well. The income tax was new to everybody else in 1913, and we managed to succumb to the idea that the government has to raise money somehow. Putting them on the same playing field as everyone else just gives them some skin in the game.
Let me get this straight.
Talk about delusion — you say there is NO FINE PRINT about Fairtax basic plan, that city and state governments will have to pay massive taxes to the federal government?
Then you tell me to check out the Fairtax “definition of a person” in such and such place, and then some other fine print in such and such place?
Are you kidding? You just proved it’s fine print.
Fairtax has a massive tax on city and state governments, that they are hidding in the fine print. And you “refute” this fact, by pointing me to what? FINE PRINT!
Here is a clue — in 13 years, you have purposely deceived the public, you have written a million or more words about this “plan” and only in one sentence have you mentioned that city and states would have to pay massive taxes to the federal government.
City and state governments won’t go along with this. You can’t force them. You can’t fool them.
City and states will never pay this massive tax. You can’t make them. No Congress will make them. No court will make them.
Do you have some big Army somewhere that you will use to make the Texas state government pay this massive tax? No — you don’t. How will you force Texas governor and legislature to pay 10 billion dollars a year to the federal government?
You won’t be able to force the Texas governor or legistlature to pay it.
Same thing with California — you won’t be abe to force the state of California to pay this massive tax.
Same thing with all 50 states. You won’t be able to force ANY state government to pay this massive tax.
Same thing with 20,000 cities. You won’t be able to force ANY city government to pay this massive tax on them.
Same thing with counties. You won’t be able to force ANY county government to pay this massive tax.
Same thing with Medicare. You wont be able to force Medicare to pay ANY of this massive tax.
Same thing with Pentagon. You won’t be able to force the Pentagon to pay ANY of this massive tax.
Same thing with Cancer victims. You won’t be able to force ANY cancer victim to pay this tax.
Same thing with renters. You won’t be able to force ANY renter to pay this tax.
Same thing with new home buyers. You won’t be able to force ANY new home buyer to pay this tax.
Same thing with new car buyers. You wont be able to force ANY new care buyer to pay this tax.
Same thing with eaters. You won’t be able to force ANY person to pay this massive tax on their food.
In other words, Fairtax is utter nonsense.
No fine print?
Question 1) In ten years, how many times has a Fairtax book mentioned a massive trillion dollar tax on city and states?
Answer 1) Once.
Question 2) In ten years, how many sentences has a Fairtax book used to tell people about this trillion dollar tax?
Answer 2) One sentence.
Question 3) In thirteen years, how many sentences did Fairtax books, videos, speeches, web sites, use to explain this trillion dollar tax on city and states?
Answer 3) Zero, they have yet to explain it.
Question 4) What did Fairtax spokesman tell me about their plans to tell city and state officials about this trillion dollar tax on city and state governments?
Answer 4) He said there is no plan to tell city and state officials about this tax on city and state governments.
Question 5) Is is even possible for Fairtax to force city and states to pay these massive taxes?
Answer 5) No, it’s not possible for Fairtax to force city and states to pay this massive tax.
Question 6) Do city and state officials know about this massive tax Fairtax has planned?
Answer 6) No, city nor state officials have any idea about Fairtax plan for a massive tax on city and state governments.
Question 7) Why is it not possible for Fairtax to force city and states to pay massive taxes to the federal government?
Answer 7) a) State’s Rights — state governments can not be forced to pay massive taxes to the federal gov.
b) No Congressman in their right mind will force every city government in his district to pay massive taxes to the federal government.
There is no fine print. There are no secrets. Your comment here is pure BS if not mis-information.
You obviously have not read the bill, HR 25, since the bill clearly says that state and federal governments pay the same tax on the same items as everyone else.
Since you are that lazy, I’ll be glad to help you.
Check out what a PERSON is defined as on page 12. Then read on page 89, Sec 703 Government Purchases, and Sec 704 (a) for the definition of a Government Enterprise.
It says Federal and State Governments are subject to the same tax as you and I. And why shouldn’t they be?
Remember, this is a complete overhaul of the income tax system. Not a modification of current IRC. The object is to replace the current income tax code of 75,000 pages and repeal the 16th Amendment, be revenue neutral, does not punish business, industry, or personal productivity, will attract business from around the world.
The only problem that might occur is in finding enough people to fill the jobs that will be created as a result of the United States becoming the tax haven of the world when businesses start here instead of leaving here to go overseas in order to escape out current tax code.
The FairTax is 131 pages long. Simple, transparent, progressive, and fair.
Have you really examined the Fairtax?
I don’t mean the hype generated by Fairtax itself, I don’t mean the claims and promises by Fairtax leaders.
I mean the fine print. The “rest of the story?”
Really, have you looked at it objectively? Critically?
You may or may not hit bulls-eyes on every other political topic, but on this one, you may need to look again.
As Bertrand Russell said “Two plus two equals five, therefore I am the Pope”.
Did you know the Fairtax fine print shows it’s a massive new tax? Each year, a trillion dollars or so of the federal revenue does not come from the “people tax” at all.
Fairtax math counts about a trillion dollars of yearly revenue as coming from NOT the tax on people that they (sorta) describe in their books and videos.
There is ANOTHER tax, that they do not mention in their videos and books. At least, they didn’t mention it for the first ten years.
They they mentioned it in ONE sentence.
They didn’t mention it in any speech, or any video, or include it in any article for the general public.
They didn’t mention this trillion dollar revenue stream in any public meeting, in fact, it’s quite reasonable to assume they hid this intentionally.
It wasn’t a million dollar mistake. It was and is a trillion dollar deception. You don’t hide a trillion dollar deception by accident or honest error.
Now, maybe this separate tax is legitimate (and maybe cows fly). Maybe they can get this extra trillion dollars.
Fairtax leaders — when I contacted them about this separate and hidden tax — defended the tax tenaciously. They insist they WILL get this trillion dollars, though they claim it is more like 600 billion.
They had no explanation for why it was so hidden, but they claimed it was essential, that without this separate tax, their plan falls apart.
Without this separate tax, the “people” tax would be much, much higher.
In fact, if they could not enforce this separate tax, for 600 billion, then this would not be the “Fairtax” and they would have nothing to do with it.
http://fairtaxfineprint.blogspot.com/
The three main points
1) There is deceptive fine print in Fairtax
2) The fine print shows a fundamentally bogus premise of Fairtax, which renders it absurd.
3) Fairtax leader defend the bogus premise, and offer no explanation why they hid it.